Dress size and tablecloths: why 'absurd' shidduch questions say nothing about a Jewish home
Each line below comes from a rav, a shadchan or an author in our sources; each links to the full answer.
24 pointsask your ravdifferent views
What gets asked
- 1.a caution
Caution: questions about linen, tablecloths, food, the mother's clothing and how the garbage can is set up — and it is no accident that there are no questions about middos.
Such standards are superficial and destructive to dating; they speak about the asker's mindset, not about whether the two suit each other.
Dr. Michael J. Salamon · psychologist - 2.a caution
Caution: one shadchanit demanded a photo of the grandmother — the dress sizes of the girl and her mother were not enough for her; and ordinary yarmulke clips became grounds to accuse a young man of lying.
Both cases are brought as a critique of judging by external trivia.
Dr. Michael J. Salamon · psychologistone voice - 3.sign
A question about her dress size is over the line: an immodest interest in her figure, and the answer says nothing about compatibility; asking whether she is slim is legitimate if the young man knows he could not feel attraction to a noticeably heavy girl.
One's own ideas about looks are legitimate within reason.
Shana Kramer · author - 4.a caution
Caution: a young man's mother, making inquiries, asked at what age the girl was toilet trained — a question like that says something about the asker, not the girl.
He might have ended up with a domineering mother-in-law, the author notes wryly, but a ridiculous mother he already had.
Ruki D. Renov · authorone voice
Why it says nothing
- 5.wording
When the criterion is "a top learner" or "a size 2" regardless of middos, that is exactly the superficiality our grandparents would not have allowed themselves.
Secular ideas of the ideal spouse have crept into our homes and gone deeper than we think.
Leah Jacobs and Shaindy Marks · shadchanit - 6.sign
It is not only a women's story: young men themselves reinforce the belief that a dress size is the bride's main asset, while believing that a perfect shape in an expensive suit makes them a better "catch".
It is the same illness from the other side.
Dr. Michael J. Salamon · psychologist - 7.
Ideas of beauty are learned from one's surroundings: for centuries fullness meant wealth, pale skin meant nobility; what seems inborn is learned — and can be retuned.
A young man raised in China would be simply stunned by the tall, fair-haired girl suggested in an American yeshivah.
Rav Ben Tzion Shafier - 8.wording
Mirel asked her father to check that the young man had no peyos tucked behind his ears; half a year later her husband appeared with peyos — and she admitted it herself: what mattered so much before the wedding mattered so little after.
He had worn peyos since age three; the day before the meeting a strange barber cut one off, and he asked to cut the other.
Dr. Meir Wikler · psychologist - 9.wording
About a young man who struggles in shidduchim because he is short — one question: "He can be included in a minyan, can't he?" Many such features affect neither middos, nor personality, nor the ability to live and act.
Rav Rabinovich's conclusion: one must not reject a candidate over them.
the Chazon Ish (as presented by Rav Gamliel Rabinovich) · rava personal answer - 10.
A candidate's imperfect English is plainly no reason to reject a suggestion: the fundamental considerations come first, and where everything else fits this flaw is of no consequence.
An answer to someone for whom this had become a reason to consider refusing.
the Lubavitcher Rebbea personal answer - 11.
A physical defect is not necessarily a reason to decline a shidduch.
He told the story of the imaginary hunchback as an example of the opposite: when a shidduch is not meant to be, even non-existent obstacles appear.
Rav Chaim Kanievskya personal answer - 12.
If this external thing were different, would my entire opinion of them change? Do I respect them, do they share my values?
Hair thins, style changes, and an unfamiliar look becomes the face of the person you love most; do not miss the essence over the packaging.
Miriam Zeitlin · authordifferent viewsa personal answer
Where these standards come from
- 13.sign
In shidduchim people decide for the wrong reasons — what will people say, is there enough money; from the outside it looks as if the person is at war with Heaven: the best, hand-picked partner is sent, and he pushes it away with all his might.
"Be wholehearted with Hashem": do not probe the future; take up the shidduch sent to you with hope and without prejudice.
Rav Gamliel HaKohen Rabinovich - 14.sign
Money and luxury have become our currency for judging a person; external measures — height, weight, money — cloud the sight like a cataract, and we, like consumers, accept nothing short of perfection.
An outstanding bachur is taught he commands a high price, and he dates for years, passing over wonderful girls.
Shaya Ostrov · psychologist - 15.
An expensive car does not prove wealth, wealth does not prove generosity, and generosity does not prove being undemanding: check the trait that matters directly, through inquiries or a conversation on the date.
It is important not to create positive or negative traits that may not actually be there.
Rav Reuven Epsteinone voice - 16.
Do not push a child into the "best" school for the sake of future shidduchim: a less prestigious school may well be the very path by which the right shidduch comes.
An answer to parents asking whether special effort is worth it.
Rav Chaim Kanievskyone voicea personal answer
Questions that actually tell you something
- 17.
Did you ask if he would make a good husband?
It is the absence of this quality that makes the other advantages worthless.
the Chazon Ish · ravone voice - 18.
In reply to praise of a young man's learning — "Is he a mentch?"
He puts decency above a list of outstanding achievements; Rav Yisroel Salanter asked the same.
Rav Dov Berish Weidenfelddifferent viewsa personal answer - 19.
"Smart" and "masmid" mean different things depending on who answers: factual questions give information, comparative ones do not.
Without a shared frame of reference she prefers concrete facts.
Devora Weiner · authordifferent viewsa personal answer - 20.
The general question whether he has good middos splits people into two groups and usually gives little useful information: most have both good traits and faults — you need what is particular to this person.
You need information that reveals what is particular to this person.
Rav Moshe Aharon Shuchatowitzdifferent viewsa personal answer - 21.
On money: start by asking how the person would describe their own spending habits, and know the same question will come back to you; asking what role you will play in the family income is fine, demanding a ten-year plan and specific salaries is not.
It is also fine to ask what the person expects from you financially.
Amber Adler · authorone voice
How much checking is enough
- 22.wording
Two phone calls are enough: you will hear whatever Hashem wants you to hear; if He does not want it, you will not hear it after thirty calls either.
Inquiries can take you only so far.
a mother who married off ten children (as told by Shana Kramer) · anonymousask your ravdifferent views - 23.
Ask at least three different people and check whether the essential traits repeat; subtract eighty percent of exaggerated praise.
This is his practical rule for weighing what people say.
Rav Nachum Diamantask your ravdifferent views - 24.
Checking references and listening carefully is sensible, but chasing down everyone who could add an iota of information is not practical, or even advisable.
She disputes the idea that there can never be too many inquiries.
Shana Kramer · authorask your ravdifferent views
What the labels mean
- ask your rav
- This page shows what different sources have written on the question. The practical decision belongs to your own rav.
- different views
- Sources answer this question differently; the point’s source and the full answer show how.
- one voice
- Only one author is presented here. Several of his answers or publications do not amount to agreement among independent sources.
- one voice
- These views come from one source or from related works of one author. They do not show agreement among independent sources.
- a personal answer
- This is an answer given to a particular person in his or her circumstances, or guidance the source itself does not present as a general rule. Check whether it applies to your situation.
What the books do not cover
- Brands of clothing or cars as a subject of inquiries do not appear in the books beyond one remark by Dr. Salamon about an expensive suit.
- Parents' income as an absurd question is not discussed; there is only a frame for how far one may ask about the candidate's own income.
- How to answer an absurd question when it is put to you — the books give no ready formulas; the nearest are the general rules for answering inquiries, collected in a separate guide.
- The section on how much checking is enough is marked as a matter for your rav: the sources range from two phone calls to at least three people.